NICABM-RamDass-2012

7/29/2019 NICABM-RamDass-2012

1/17

Fierce Grace: FindingCourage and Compassion

Through Challenge

A Webinar Session with

Ruth Buczynski, PhD

and Ram Dass, PhD

nicabmwww.nicabm.com

The National Institutefor the Clinical Applicationof Behavioral Medicine


2/17

Fierce Grace: Finding Courage and Compassion Through Challenge 2

The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicinewww.nicabm.com

Fierce Grace: Finding Courage and Compassion Through Challenge

Contents

A Remarkable Recovery . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Stroke: A Form of Grace . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Comparing the Experiences of Stroke and Cancer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Not Getting Caught in the Patients Karma . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

Insights into Aging . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5Difcult Experiences: Grist for the Mill . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

The Work of Waking Up . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

Counteracting the Fears of Aging. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8

Bringing Soul into Clinical Work . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9

TalkBack Segment with Joan Borysenko, PhD and Bill OHanlon, LMFT . . . . . . 10

About the Speakers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16


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Fierce Grace: Finding Courage and Compassion Through Challenge

with Ruth Buczynski, PhDand Ram Dass, PhD

Ruth Buczynski: Hello everyone and welcome. I am Dr. Ruth Buczynski, a licensed Psychologist in the

State of Connecticut and the President of theNational Institute for the Clinical Application of BehavioralMedicine.

Wherever you are calling in from tonight, we just want to say a warm, warm welcome to you. We are glad

that you are here to participate in our series on Spirituality and Healing.

I have a very, very special guest tonight. This is someone I have looked forward to ever since we started

working on this series, and I feel so lucky and grateful to be able to bring him to you. This is Ram Dass.

Thank you, so much for being here and welcome to our series.

He is the author of several books. His most recent is Be Love Now and Still Here (Embracing Aging,

Changing, and Dying 2001)is one of my personal favorites saved from all these years.

It has moved with me. It has gone through many purges, but each time that I go through and decide

whether to keep or give away, this book Ive always saved. So you can see what an honor it is for me to

have you here as part of this call.

A Remarkable Recovery

We are going to start with talking about you. You have had several health issues over the last fteen years,

including a stroke and a serious infection, and I guess it would be too simplistic to say, What did you

learn from all of that? But you had a remarkable recovery to what do you credit your recovery?

Ram Dass: Love.

Ruth Buczynski: Love. Can you tell me more?

Ram Dass: I was surrounded by a number of helpers and

I learned a lot about dependency. Before the stroke, I was

always very independent, and the stroke taught me about

dependency.

I learned that the stroke was part of my body, not myself. Usually we say, I had a stroke, but thats not

well put. Its really that, My body had a stroke.

Then I had to learn to speak I get a concept and I nd the words; I go through the word closet: What

color should I wear? I just go on and on, going on through. That was the aphasia, and I learned

I am still having trouble with my words. Therapy is like walking in the pool because I cant walk on the

ground because of gravity, but I can walk in a pool.

Although everybody around me in the hospital said, Oh, its too bad, your stroke. A stroke but what I

found, from my interaction with my guru inside, is that the stroke wasnt bad. It wasgrace.

I learned that the

stroke was part of my

body, not my self.


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Stroke: A Form of Grace

Ruth Buczynski: I am glad you mentioned that because that actually was the next thing I wanted to ask

you about. You have called your stroke a form of grace as you did actually just now. I dont think most

people would see it that way. Can you tell us a little more? Why do you call it grace?

Ram Dass: I call it erce grace.

Ruth Buczynski: I can imagine.

Ram Dass: But it brought me to a new level of consciousness

and it quieted me because I couldnt speak.

There were interactions I was on a street corner in my wheelchair, and a couple came along and they

said, Would you like us to help you? There was something so loving about the interaction. I found that

being in the wheelchairopened the hearts of people around me.

I had about two weeks of depression, after the stroke, which I realized was not depression about the stroke,

but depression about the feeling that I had lost my faith. Usually, I had all my grace my life was full of

grace and then the stroke.

I had the picture of my guru in the hospital and I said to him, Why

did I get this stroke? You were taking care of me. Did you go out for

lunch or something? And he said, in my imagination, that this was

grace.

Later, I found that the stroke itself was not grace, but my reaction to

the stroke was grace. I was positive from it. I was fascinated by it. It

was changing my philosophy of life.

I really now saw it I always concentrate on the now, and I dont concentrate on what was. I didnt see

myself as somebody who was a golfer or a sports car enthusiast or anything like that. That was in the past.

All I did was concentrate on the now and now I was somebody with a stroke the body had had a stroke.

That saved me a lot of suffering because the comparison was suffering.

Comparing the Experiences of Stroke and Cancer

Ruth Buczynski: Thinking about all the practitioners that are on the call right now, many of them come

from the medical side of our professions; they might be oncologists or cardiologists, or emergency room

practitioners either nurses or physicians. I am trying to think about expanding some of the lessons

you learned, outward. So, for instance, there are people who areoncology nurses as well as MDs. How might this be relevant for

theirpatients? Lets say they have a patient who has cancer.

Ram Dass: They (practitioners) have certain roles to fulll, and

that is the bottom line they have to fulll those roles. But what

they can do is work on themselves and deepen their spiritual heart.

...the stroke wasntbad. It was grace.

...being in the

wheelchair...opened

the hearts of people

around me.

...the stroke itself

was not grace, but

my reaction to the

stroke was grace.


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When they go in to see a patient, they see a soul and they are a

soul. It becomes a spiritual meeting

First of all, their role is that they have to get the patient better

But they themselves must not get caught in the patients karma.

They are not becoming emotional about whether they get better

or not. They do their role perfectly. Then they identify with their

soul more than with their role.

I can sit with dying people; I sit at the bedside, and I go in as a

rock, as a loving rock. We can bounce off that love because souls are loving toward one another, and that

is the dying, and we can go ahead.

Not Getting Caught in the Patients Karma

Ruth Buczynski: Tell me more about not getting caught in the patients karma.

Ram Dass: You can fulll your role without getting caught in the patients karma. That means in the

wishing they would get better or feeling sad for the suffering. I am sure people would say, Why is he

not telling me? After all suffering is spiritually positive. Many, many people have suffered. Suffering

might get them a step ahead in their spiritual journey.

Of course, I believe in reincarnation, which many of your

listeners dont. I think it is absolutely the way God wanted it.

We in the West dont believe in it. We think of things, we think

things about the afterlife and then we go to the afterlife and they

become their projections; they think there is going to be a heaven or a hell, or a beautiful sylvan scene or

something like that. That is just their projections from their life.

Insights into Aging

Ruth Buczynski: Has your stroke given you any insights into aging?

Ram Dass: Aging? Im the poster boy of aging! Im eighty-one and I feel that one of the things people

havent explored is contentment.

I feel very content, and I feel that because I focus on the now. I dont

focus on the past and I dont focus on the future, only on now. I feel

content with my world.

I used to travel a lot. I dont think about that because in the now, I stay

put, just contentcontent. The AARP puts out the rulebook and has

old people climbing mountains and playing tennis. But I nd that I am

content just sitting here.

The moment can be so exquisite; you just go into the moment. Go into the moment. I see outside the trees

and the grass and the ocean and you. I am content with just thatjust that.

...one of the

things people

havent explored

is contentment.

Suffering might get

them a step ahead in

their spiritual journey.

When practitioners

see a patient, they see

a soul, and theyare

a soul. It becomes a

spiritual meeting...


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Difcult Experiences: Grist for the Mill

Ruth Buczynski: One of the things that you have said is that difcult experiences are grist for the mill.

I would like to ask you, as the poster boy for aging, can you tell us about what are the difcult experiences

you have had and how it was grist for the mill?

Ram Dass: I cant dance, for example, and I feel that attachment to dancing and Ive had to give it up.

The giving up of attachments is great in the spiritual world giving up attachments.

Sufferingis grace. Suffering often leads you into deepening the moment. I

often nd that suffering makes me go deeper in my soul.

Ruth Buczynski: I would like to move a little bit from aging to dying. You

were in the middle of writing Still Here when you had your stroke, so you

had a beginning of a book and then a personal event I dont know if you

would use the word tragedy probably not

Ram Dass: It was grace.

Ruth Buczynski: Yes. How would you say the book changed as a result of your experience?

Ram Dass: That book was written when I was sixty-two or so, and I am still here and I was so joyous

about aging.

Now, when Im in my eighties, there is the joy, its true, but with the joy is deepening of life. I think now

I dont take the suffering so lightly because there has been a lot more suffering.

The suffering still calls me to the moment, and aging has in it suffering,

especially if you havent made friends with change.

With aging, there are changes in your body, changes in your family,

changes in your friends, changes in the society unless you are friendswith change, you dont get by without really suffering.

It is like the changes in the season. Well, here comes another stranger

a season. Theres another one and another one.

Not being able to walk (is change). I see everybody else walking, and even in my fantasies I walk, but

I dont walk regularly. It is a change and so I just get comfortable in my wheelchair and I love my

wheelchair.

See, my spiritual route is love. That is the route I use to get to God. I love everything. Its far out

In the middle of my chest, I focus. Thats where I will chant to my

spiritual heart. Then, I want to take the identication which comes

from the ego, and move it down to the spiritual heart.

The spiritual heart I consider loving awareness because you are

aware from down here. I just say, I am loving aware. I am loving

aware. I am loving awareness

Suffering

often leads

you into

deepening

the moment.

...unless you

are friends with

change, you dontget by without

really suffering.

...I want to take the

identication which

comes from the ego,

and move it down to

the spiritual heart.


7/17



The spiritual heart, you cant operate on it. You cant open it because you wont be there, because it is

not in this plane. It is not a thing. So you aim at I am loving awareness. And nally you have just got,

Loving awareness. Loving awareness. Loving awareness.

It gets so that you are aware of the things that are in the moment, and

you love every one and every thing.

My guru said, Ram Dass, love everybody. And I said, from myego, I said, Maharaji, I cant love everybody. And he was training

me to live down here, because this identity of us is the Real I.

The ego is who we think we are and down below is called the Real I.

I didnt nd that out until well along in my life. Most people continue to this and this to this on the

deathbed. But if you have done this work in your life, the deathbed is nothing. There is no clinging to the

incarnation.

The Work of Waking Up

Ruth Buczynski: You have said that dying people and caregivers of the dying are involved/engaged in

the same work the work of waking up. Can you tell me more about what you mean by that?

Ram Dass: Waking up is this way of identication from there to there. Were waking up to our real self,

in which the spirit is our home.

We are not humans taking a spiritual trip; we are spiritual beings

taking a human trip. We are on a journey, you and I. How is your trip?

My trip is pretty good!

And that change is so much a part of the dying process, because thedying process casts you into your soul.

For the attendants to the dying, they want to follow the dying person

through the ceremony to the end and they can only do that if they are

in their spiritual heart.

We are mirrors to each other, and the caretaker gets caught in that role because of the intensity of the

situation.

But one way or the other, they can get caught in their soul and then they can mirror the soul for the soul

of the dying person and that is a great, great deal more help

than the help they get in their role.

Ruth Buczynski: Ram Dass, how do we do that? How do we

mirror the soul to the dying person?

Ram Dass: Once you get toyoursoul, then every person you

look at is a soul - the soul in a human incarnation. Then, that

The ego is who we

think we are - and

down below iscalled the Real I.

We are not humans

taking a spiritual

trip; we are spiritual

beings taking a

human trip.

Once you get to your

soul, then every person

you look at is a soul -

the soul in a human

incarnation.


8/17



consciousness mirrors the soul of the dying person. All that means is that any spiritual path of any kind for

the caretakers will be of value to the dying person.

Counteracting the Fears of Aging

Ruth Buczynski: In Still Here, you spoke about the usual suspects our fears of aging and senility and

some of the other things that make us awfully scared of getting older. Can you describe them and tell ushow we can use mindfulness to counteract them?

Ram Dass: Yes. I take the memory. There goes memory! Thats the easy way There goes memory!

Memory keeps you in the past and I really feel that in the moment, now, gives you great happiness.

Ruth Buczynski: Lets talk about dementia.

Ram Dass: Dementia is suffering for the family - the other associates to

the person - more than to the person. The person can get the now and they

can work with the now, each moment, and they have contentment.

My brother has dementia and I go and talk to him. Its like a newrelationshipeach time, a new relationshipa new relationshipa new relationship and if I dont get

freaked, he doesnt get freaked.

Ruth Buczynski: Sticking with this theme and thinking about some of the things that we fear about

aging, I think embarrassment comes up for many of us because we are just not able to manage all of the

things that can happen. Some of us will have dementia; some of us will be incontinent.can you help us

think about how we need to look at these issues of embarrassment?

Ram Dass: That (embarrassment) is seeing the self through other peoples eyes and that was my

childhood. Now, I see myself in my own eyes.

I really go inside - go inside and look. When you are down in your soul,

you are able to look at the incarnation, look at it fully.

There is peeing in your pants, and isnt thatan embarrassment? Hes

having the embarrassment; Im not having the embarrassment. Im a

witness. Im witnessing the embarrassment. A witness will be even more

distant from your life. The embarrassment will do that - it will pull you

into the witness of the embarrassment.

Ruth Buczynski: Id like to stay on this theme for a little bit longer. Powerlessness was something else

that you wrote about.

Ram Dass: Your powerlessness is out there. Its in the incarnation, its in your life. You are not livingin

your life; you are living inside. You dont have any powerlessness inside.

So you look at it as, Wow look at that powerlessness. or, Boy, is he upset about having less power!

But Im not upset because Im not at that plane (of consciousness.) I am usually one removed.

Dementia is

suffering for

the family...

...embarrassment

is seeing the self

through other

peoples eyes...


9/17



There are planes of consciousness: you and I are talking today in this (interview), then there is a plane of

consciousness, which is the soul, and then there is a plane of consciousness in the one, which is all beings

meeting again in the one.

Those are three levels of consciousness. If you dont hang out in the

everyday stuff - that kind of consciousness - you will just be witnessing

from the other consciousness.

Ruth Buczynski: How about depression?

Ram Dass: Depression is created by the mind, created with the mind,

and therefore you witness the depression. Depression happens to the

psyche, and it doesnt happen (to the soul) you dont nd the soul

getting depressed. The soul may fall into the ocean of love, but it wont get into depression.

It may sound simple, but it takes you a long time to make that transition.

Bringing Soul into Clinical Work

Ruth Buczynski: Lets think about bringing soul into clinical work there are so many practitioners

on this call, both from the mental health world and also from the medical/physical world. What are your

thoughts on how we could bring soul into our clinical work; how could we support patients more on their

journeys of furthering consciousness?

Ram Dass: I think the practitioner, besides his/her medical

training, should train in the spiritual, for example, meditating,

singing, reading books that are written by people who are

wayalong in their soul.

I have a friend, who is a doctor in an ER, and it is so demanding, and he meditates every morning andevery weekend. He just gets so that he is quiet and centered, and attentive. He works in the ER under

tremendous stress and he serves as an example for the other doctors in the ER because he is just so clear.

Ruth Buczynski: Thank you. I am afraid we are out of time.

To everyone on the call, we will be starting our Talkback Segment in a moment, but I just want to tell you

that you will be getting an email from me soon, and I will give you the links to Ram Dasss books in case

you would like to check them out. We will give you the links to them on Amazon.

In addition, I am going to give you the link to the Comment Board. Please go to the Comment Board and

tell us what stood out to you tonight. Tell us how youregoing to use what you heard tonight. When you

do that, please put in your rst and last name, your occupation, and your city and state or country, and thenjust tell us howyou are going to use what you heard.

Ram Dass: It has been truly an honor to spend this time with you. Thank you so much.

Ram Dass: Thank you. Youre a great interviewer.

Ruth Buczynski: Oh, thats very sweet of you to say. Take good care.

...the practitioner should

train in the spiritual...

The soul may fall

into the ocean

of love, but itwont get into

depression.


10/17



TalkBack Segment with Joan Borysenko, PhD and Bill OHanlon, LMFT

Ruth: Welcome back. That was quite a call. First, let me introduce you both. These are my TalkBack

buddies: Dr. Joan Borysenko is a licensed psychologist, and author of many, many books includingFire

in the Soul: A New Psychology of Spiritual Optimism.

Bill OHanlon is also the author of many books including one which is The Change Your Life Book.

What did you think? Lets start with what stood out to you in the

call.

Joan: First of all, its remarkable to watch Ram Dass whos been

now, almost 20 years, in a wheelchair with that stroke and to

witness the fact that this is a man who is truly content. Its clear

that hes living the message of his classic book,Be Here Now.

Thats his whole message: when youre living in the present,

then youre in connection with all that is. Youre in connection

with what he calls the loving heart that witnesses.

I was really impressed by his degree of freedom and you dont think of somebody in a wheelchair as free.

You think of them as dependent, but he has that sense of freedom and that sense of, Im okay with death

- its just a change of state. His capacity to be truly present with appreciation to life as it unfolds is an

absolutely beautiful teaching!

Ruth: How about you, Bill? What stood out to you?

Bill: First, I guess, to say that Ram Dass has been one of my heroes for a long time, and like you, Ruth,

I carried his book around - that kind of battered, big format Be Here Now book. It was an amazing book,

and I met Ram Dass in the early 70s, so about 40 years ago, now. Hes one of my spiritual heroes and hes

had a big inuence on me.

It was really great to hear him, to see him, and to know hes still here as he says in the title of one of his

books. But, whats always struck me is his almost sideways approach to spirituality. Hes a little irreverent;

he has a good sense of humor and that, I think, really just still came through. The essence of Ram Dass in

Richard Alpert came through for me.

Ruth: I agree. It was interesting to me to both interview

Stephen Levine last week and also to prepare for that

interview and to realize what close friends they were

So, lets jump in and lets start with Joan. What strategiescan we use to avoid getting caught up in our patients

karma and becoming emotional?

Joan: That is such a fantastic question, Ruth, because Ive

just recently attended a Compassion Fatigue Conference in Richmond, Ontario. Compassion fatigue is

something thats been researched a bit and really isnt widely understood, but its when we get wrapped

up emotionally in our patients stories and we start to get traumatized vicariously.

...when youre living

in the present, then

youre in connection

with all that is. Youre

in connection with...

the loving heart that

witnesses.

Compassion fatigue is...

when we get wrapped up

emotionally in our patientsstories and we start to get

traumatized vicariously.


11/17



Its really almost secondary post traumatic stress that happens when youre working with the dying, or

when youre working with the chronically or acutely ill patient.

When youre working with a young woman like the one I saw a little bit ago who had a very, very serious

lymphoma and two small kids, its so easy to get yourself into her place. If you empathize in that way, you

will lose yourself and lose your capacity to be effective.

So to maintain the state that Ram Dass talks about - of being a loving witness, of being lovingly present,but without the sense of attachment that she has to get better or you hope this or that will happen - is very

important. Its just being able to be present to what is.

Depending upon the practitioner, the ways that we can do that are

different. One technique an old spiritual technique - that I have always

used is that before I see a client, I actually imagine them in a bubble of

light. I imagine myself in a bubble of light and I imagine that whatever

is useful from one of us to the other will get through that bubble, but

anything thats not useful will just be stopped at the edge of that bubble.

That acts as a metaphor to kind of alert me to when Im losing myobjectivity and I think thats helped a lot. It allows me to be compassionate without losing myself.

Ruth: Bill, when healing from illness or signicant injury, sometimes previously independent people

become dependent on others. Often that happens for previously independent people. What practices would

you recommend to help them cope in this role shift?

Bill: Thats interesting because I have some personal experience with this as I think both of you know

since Ive spoken to you about it. My ancs parents are 97 and 93, and Ive been going and visiting them.

Theyre still living in their own home and theyre pretty independent, but they cant drive anymore and

they have some signicant limitations based on health and age.

I guess because I was a family therapist for so long and I

helped kids develop their independence, its interesting to

watch it go the other way as people lose their independence.

There are some places where I just have to step in and say, as

you would with a child, This is not a place of choice. You

need to do it this way or youre going to fall or something

bad is going to happen.

I really need to come in and take charge in certain areas, but

in as many places as possible, as with a child, you want to

give choices.

My future father-in-law has to get eye drops and he hates to get things put in his eyes, but its really

important - he may lose his vision if he doesnt. So, I say, Okay, you tell me when youre ready. You tell

me which eyeyou hold it open. This gives him as many choices and as much autonomy as possible.

...before I see a

client, I actually

imagine them in

a bubble of light.

...because I was a family

therapist for so long and

I helped kids develop

their independence, its

interesting to watch it go

the other way as people

lose their independence.


12/17



I think thats key with our clients and our patients as well as with the

people in our lives who arent used to being dependent because they

will sometimes rail against it. They want to keep control because

everythings out of control.

In as many places as they can have choice and control which wont

put them at risk - thats the best thing you can do. You and I have

talked about this in the past, Ruth, because both of us have had partners that have had signicant illnessesand they were very strong willed.

They wanted to do everything and they couldntand sometimes you just have to say, Sorry, this is an

executive decision, and you cant do that! Youre going to fall. Youre going to hurt yourself and then well

have worse problems.

So there are places when you have to take charge, and there

are places when you can allow the maximum of their own

personal control and choice.

Ruth: Thats true from the caregivers perspective. I wonderif either of you have a thought about if youre consoling

or if youre a family doctor or a nurse practitioner whos

seeing someone who has just had a strokeor has just

had something that keeps them from having the personal

freedom and mobility that they used to have.

What can we tell that person that would also be helpful to them? I appreciate those ideas and I think those

are useful to the caregiverand I think there are two sides to that. What can we tell the patient.

Joan: I think whats really important is to listen to the patient - to listen to the person and to simply say,

Youve had a tremendous change in life here and Im sure you have a lot of thoughts and a lot of feelings.Tell me truly whats going on for you. What is this like?

I think that whats so difcult with a disability is that we start to feel invisible. We start to lose ourselves.

So, when we feel, Im not lost. Im still a person. Somebody

cares. Somebody sees methen thats the single greatest hope

of everyones heart. We simply want to be able to be seen as a

human being and then you go from there.

Bill: I have one thing to add, Ruth. I read a book recently which

really touched me and it was by Reynolds Price, A Whole New

Life.

He tells about getting spinal cancer and how he lost his ability

to walk. He writes near the end of the book he had a whole

memoir of his experience of losing a lot of independence and

he said, I wish I could tell this to everyone whos facing this kind of loss of choice and independenceI

wish that someone had taken me by the shoulders when I rst got this and said, the old Reynolds Price is

dead! He will never come back.

They want to keep

control because

everythings out of

control.

...there are places when

you have to take charge

and places when you canallow the maximum of

their own personal control

and choice.

...whats so difcult

with a disability is

that we start to feel

invisible...We simply

want to be able to

be seen as a humanbeing...


13/17



He kept comparing what he used to be able to do with what he was

able to do after he became ill and he said, If they just told me - you

have to double time you have to nd a new Reynolds Price with a

new set of choices and a new set of options because the old one is

gone.

He kept trying to get back to where he was and he was never going

back there. I think thats a good message for people who have justgone through one of these things where theyre going to be more dependent. Its no longer the old you. Its

a whole new you and you have to recreate yourself with a whole new set of parameters.

Ruth: Thank you. I want to thank both of you. Now, I want to make it just a little more challenging. What

if the patient is aphasic and just for the psychotherapists on the call, aphasia is the lack of the ability to

speak. Joan, would you modify my description at all?

Joan: No, I think youre right. Thats great.

Ruth: So, what if the patient is aphasic and cant talk to you? He/she has limitations somewhat limiting

and somewhat unpredictable. I think thats something we will nd especially with aging people, and notonly with aging people, but with anyone who has had a stroke.

Bill: I have something for this - really quickly. I learned this from Milton Erickson who was one of my

teachers. He must have known about brain plasticity from early on. The famous country singer, Mel

Tillis, stutters, but not when he sings! You must use a different part of the brain to speak uently. So after

aphasia, people can sometimes do rhythmic talking or singing-talking.

So, number one, I would go to that. I would say, Is there a way you can communicate by singing it out

or tapping it out or rhythmically doing it, which must happen in a different part of the brain. Thats just

a practical suggestion.

The other thing, and I think this is what makes Ram Dass so

impressive is that he said, This is what I was striving for all the

time - to be here, to be present, and not to be generating all this

content.

When Id speak, sometimes people would say, Bill, you go on a

little too much and I say, Yeah, I know. Theyve recommended

that I go to Al-Anon and on and on and on So thats my 12-step

program!

That would be a spiritual practice for me to not always be lling the space with words. So again, can we

nd a way to reframe this so its not just a terrible tragedy, but that there is a benet or some compensation

to it.

Joan, what would you say?

Joan: Bill, that was absolutely brilliant. I have nothing to add to it.

Its a whole new

you and you have

to recreate yourself

with a whole new

set of parameters.

This is what I was

striving for all the

time - to be here, to

be present, and not

to be generating all

this content.


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Ruth: Ive had a personal experience with that. My partner died of a brain tumor and was aphasic. I had

to learn not to constantly try to ll in words and sentences unless I was asked to, and I had to learn to just

slow down, to wait, and to be there.

Its a profound experience certainly for the person who is aphasic, but also for the caregiver to learn to be

with and to appreciate being with someone that you cannot talk with in the way that you might have in

the past.

Moving on, Joan, have you ever worked with a patient who has experienced a spiritual transformation

after an illness or injury? Is there a patient?

Joan: I have experienced a number of those, but I realize there is a story about the transformation of a patient

and a caregiver both of whom were good friends of Ram Dass. I want to give this book recommendation

and a bit of the story to all of the practitioners out there. The name of the book is Ten Thousand Joys &

Ten Thousand Sorrows. The author is Olivia Hoblitzelle.

I actually worked with her in the mind-body program at

the Deaconess Hospital. She and her husband Harrison

Hoblitzelle, we called him Hobb, went through Alzheimers.Hobb got early onset Alzheimers and he was one of the best

known meditation teachers in Boston. Both of the Hoblitzelles

were such good friends of Ram Dass and Stephen Levine -

these were wonderful people.

They decided that they would use the same kinds of principles

that Ram Dass has talked about here - of loving awareness, of

being present to what is, not making comparisons about what you used to do, but accepting yourself as

you just said, Bill, of becoming a whole new being and that they would go through Alzheimers together

like this.

It was a journey ofTen Thousand Joys & Ten Thousand Sorrows. Her book is extraordinary because at the

end of every chapter, there are very specic invitations to processes - practices - that make it easier for the

caregiver and make it easier for the person being cared for.

I think its probably the single best book - this couples journey through Alzheimers. So I just wanted to

let everybody know about that.

Ruth: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that!

Bill could you describe some effective compassionate methods

that we could use to help our clients see illness as grace? We

dont have a lot of time, but can you squeeze in a couple?

Bill: Sure this is very simply what Ram Dass modeled for us:

balance out the losses with the blessings. He said, This is what

my guru tried to teach me years ago - to be here now. Thats all I can do.

My brother is demented and I go there. If I expect him to be like he was, I get frustrated, but if I just stay

with him in the moment and dont communicate that theres something wrong, hes perfectly ne!

...there are very specic

invitations to processes

- practices - that make it

easier for the caregiver

and make it easier for the

person being cared for.

...this is what Ram

Dass modeled for us:

balance out the losseswith the blessings.


15/17



So, its balancing the blessing with the losses.

Ruth: Thank you! Im afraid were out of time. Everyone thanks for being part of this call. This was an

awesome, awesome experience.

In a moment, Im going to send you an email and in that email I will be sending you a link to the Comment

Board as well as a link to some of Ram Dasss books. Please go there, especially go to the Comment Board

and tell us what stood out to you tonight and how youre going to use what you heard.

In a couple of hours, if youre a Gold Member, I will send you a link to both this video as well as to the

audio. And by the way, people have asked, do the recordings of the videos and the audios include our

TalkBacks with Joan and Bill and the answer is yes, they do!

Youll get the whole thing from the beginning with the person that is the primary speaker of the call as well

as in the end when the three of us are talking.

Then, youll get it on audio and mp3, so that you can use it in your car or at the gym as well as the video.

On Friday, youll get the transcript for the call and if youre not a Gold Member and youd like to be,

theres a link right below, so go ahead and sign upand thanks for being here.

Next week were going to be talking with Larry Dossey. Larry is a good friend of Joans and well known

among many of us in the mind-body community. Were going to talk about the power of prayer and

premonition. You wont want to miss it! Be sure to be with us next week.

Take good care everyone Bye.


16/17



About The Speakers:

Ram Dass is a beloved spiritual gure, inspiring four generations of

spiritual seekers. Ram Dass has made his mark on the world giving

teachings and promoting loving service, harmonious business practices,

and conscious care for the dying.

Be Here Now, Ram Dasss seminal work, is a centerpiece of Western

articulation of Eastern philosophy, and how to live joyously a hundred

per cent of the time in the present, luminous or mundane.

Ram Dass now resides on Maui, where he shares his teachings through

the internet and through retreats on Maui. His work continues to be a

path of inspiration to his old students and friends as well as young people

who are just discovering the path ofBeing Here Now. His most recent

book, Be Love Now,follows the track of his own heart awakening and

his quest to embody the unconditional love that he experienced with his

guru Neem Karoli Baba.

Find out more about this and related programs at:

www.nicabm.com

Featured Books by Speaker: Ram Dass

Remember, Be Here Now

ClickHEREto Purchase Now!

Still Here (Embracing Aging,Changing, and Dying)

ClickHEREto Purchase Now!
http://www.nicabm.com/http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0517543052/ref%3Das_li_ss_tl%3Fie%3DUTF8%26camp%3D1789%26creative%3D390957%26creativeASIN%3D0517543052%26linkCode%3Das2%26tag%3Dbillohanlonhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573228710/ref%3Das_li_ss_tl%3Fie%3DUTF8%26camp%3D1789%26creative%3D390957%26creativeASIN%3D1573228710%26linkCode%3Das2%26tag%3Dbillohanlonhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573228710/ref%3Das_li_ss_tl%3Fie%3DUTF8%26camp%3D1789%26creative%3D390957%26creativeASIN%3D1573228710%26linkCode%3Das2%26tag%3Dbillohanlonhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0517543052/ref%3Das_li_ss_tl%3Fie%3DUTF8%26camp%3D1789%26creative%3D390957%26creativeASIN%3D0517543052%26linkCode%3Das2%26tag%3Dbillohanlonhttp://www.nicabm.com/http://www.nicabm.com/?loc=deccon09a/presenters/&menu=presenters&bot=1&top=30&speaker=Bill_O%27Hanlon,_LMFT


17/17


The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicinewww nicabm com

About The TalkBack Speakers:

Joan Z. Borysenko, PhD, has been described as a respected scientist,gifed therapist, and unabashed mystic. Trained at Harvard MedicalSchool, she was an instructor in medicine until 1988.

Currently the President o Mind/Body Health Sciences, Inc., she is aninternationally known speaker and consultant in womens health andspirituality, integrative medicine and the mind/body connection. Joanalso has a regular 2 to 3 page column she writes in Prevention every

month. She is the author o nine books, including New York Timesbestsellers.

Bill O'Hanlon, LMFT, is a dynamic, inspirational speaker andprolic author (over 30 books so ar) who helps motivate people andorganizations to determine what they are meant to be doing and toremove the barriers to succeeding at those goals.

Originally trained as a psychotherapist, Bill has become known or hiscollaborative and respectul approach, irreverent humor, storytelling,clear and accessible presentation style, and his inectious enthusiasmor whatever he is doing. He teaches seminars, leads trainings, writesbooks, coaches people and oers websites, podcasts, blogs, web-basedcourses, teleclasses and audio and video programs.

Since 1989, Ruth has combined her commitment to mind/body

medicine with a savvy business model. As president o e NationalInstitute or the Clinical Application or Behavioral Medicine, shes beena leader in bringing innovative training and proessional developmentprograms to thousands o health and mental health care practitionersthroughout the world.

Successully sponsoring distance-learning programs and annualconerences or over 20 years, shes now expanded into the cloud.During the past 4 years, shes developed intelligent and thoughtullyresearched teleseminars, and most recently, webinars that continue togrow exponentially.
http://www.nicabm.com/?loc=deccon09a/presenters/&menu=presenters&bot=1&top=30&speaker=Bill_O%27Hanlon,_LMFT

NICABM-RamDass-2012

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